Doug Houser:
From Rea & Associates' studio, this is unsuitable, a management and financial services podcast for entrepreneurs, tenured business leaders and others who are ready to look beyond the suit and tie culture for meaningful, measurable results. I'm Doug Houser. On this weekly podcast, thought leaders and business professionals break down complicated and mundane topics and give you the tips and insight you actually need to grow as a leader while helping your organization grow and thrive. If you haven't already, hit the subscribe button so you don't miss future episodes. And if you want access to even more information, show notes and exclusive content, visit our website at www.reacpa.com/podcast, and sign up for updates.
Searching for business relationships that are right for your organization can be quite the challenge, but understanding your boundaries as a business and creating best practices to follow could be the key to a healthy relationship with your client today. Mark McKinley, regional president at Rea & Associates, is going to share his experience on how to run an effective business and the importance of finding the right clients for you. Welcome back to unsuitable, Mark.
Mark McKinley:
Thanks for having me, Doug. Good to be back.
Doug:
Yeah, absolutely. So obviously I wish we were together in person and maybe could share a beverage of choice, but we'll have to do that another time. We're managing as best we can with the remote podcast here, but you know I've talked a lot about, during this time, let's try to run a little bit counter to what everybody else is doing. The immediate reaction to COVID is, "I'm going to tighten down everything and really try to shrink my business a little, preserve that business that way", but I think it's a great opportunity to try to go acquire the right clients at the right time, which is now, by showing your resources and all that. Talk a little bit about our firm's approach to that and trying to take advantage of this time, and what other business businesses can do similarly.
Mark:
Thanks for the introduction, Doug, I really appreciate that, great frame of that. One of the things that we learned back in 2008 and 9 during the great recession, was we were one of those firms that pulled back and really tried to watch our pennies and all of that, and it was the wrong approach to go for. It absolutely was. It is a time where clients are craving attention, they're craving information, they're craving for some guidance on how to move forward. And you may not have all the answers in that situation, but what you got to do is post the questions to help them figure out the answers for themselves.
So when COVID came in, we got together as a firm and really took a look at it and said, "Hey, let's not repeat the sins of the past. Let's grow from that. Let's double down. Let's really try and put ourselves in a position where we can assist our great clients. Can we get our team educated on what's happening out there and then make them extra accessible to the clients, to really answer some of those questions and then really pose some of those difficult questions to them?".
Doug:
I think that's fantastic, I wholeheartedly agree because obviously there were so many immediate changes, whether it was PPP or CARES act and different tax credits, different tax planning opportunities that come out of that, it's got to be a resource and be in front of folks. Now, as you said, now's the time they crave that. So what are some of the things that you think are important? How do you attack that as an organization and how do you get that mentality to permeate through everybody in the organization?
Mark:
So we have an unwritten rule here of leave your ego at the door when you come in, and it's huge for us. So we've been blessed. We have such wonderful people, for instance yourself, I mean you went and just dove into that PPP information and every time I sent you a question from a client, every time I texted you a question, you were there with the answer for us and you responded to the clients, not only helping them, but offering all of that out there. So really the key that I took away from that is we had to have really great people that were willing to jump in at a moment's notice, get uncomfortable, learn something new and then be able to try to share that.
And even though they kept changing the rules of the game every, I don't know, day, every half a day on you guys, you would try to keep ahead of that stuff, educate the rest of us that were busy fighting the day to day battles that we have to do, and then were accessible to us. So having a team there that can really function as the consultants that really dove in there and knew that, that was key for us.
Doug:
Yeah, certainly appreciate that and that's a great way in. And certainly we don't know all the answers too, I mean like you said, this stuff's changing all the time, but you've got to invest the time and energy and just be there as a sounding board as much as anything, what's reasonable? And have some patience. But not everybody of course is comfortable necessarily being out there and being in front of people, and we quickly moved to virtual and Zoom and it's not the same for everybody. So how do you adapt to that, differences across the organization in terms of trying to get everybody in the right role?
Mark:
So I always think about it as... take it in terms of football and coaching; you have system coaches that want to institute the same system, and they would draft players in the NFL into their teams to fit their system. And I will tell you, throughout the firm, there is not a system coach here. It's more of draft great talent, bring them into the firm, figure out how they can best suit it to meet the needs of the client, and then let them go, don't micromanage. Some people are great over the phone. Some people are great through Zoom. Some people have gotten to the point where they're comfortable maybe going out under the correct precautions with masks and everything to go back to face-to-face meetings. You have to figure ou what works for you, what works for your clients, embrace that and then go do the thing that we all love; the tax advice, the accounting advice, all that stuff, and get back to enjoying life and your job.
Doug:
Yeah. That's great, I applaud that approach where it's not like, "Okay, here, we're not trying to stuff a round peg into a square hole", so to speak. It's, "Get great people, let them do what they do well and if you focus on that, you're going to serve customers and clients the right way". And I applaud you for that approach because it's certainly not easy. The difficult part of that is you've got to be willing to be flexible and do things a little bit differently sometimes.
Mark:
But that's where I go back to, I'm blessed. I'm surrounded by partners and team members that are willing to let people be themselves and shine. One of the challenges, I don't mean to cut you out, one of the challenges we have... I mean, we've got a real talent coming to join us this coming Monday, phenomenal talent, but nobody here has any idea of how to put him in a position to shine, and how do we take advantage of that? So we're going to take a couple of weeks and let him meet everybody, get him acclimated, get comfortable with that. And I will tell you, once he's here and once he sees the team and can sense the culture and what we have, he's going to love it. He's going to love it.
Doug:
Yeah, that's a great approach. And I do, I applaud you for setting that up because so many times, organizations, when they onboard somebody, particularly somebody who's talented, they think, "Oh, well they'll just come in and we'll just let them do their thing", which yeah, to some degree, yes. But to your point, you want them to work with everybody too, we don't want to have a bunch of cowboys running around.
Mark:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Doug:
And it's interesting how... What are some other things you think are important perspectives in your experience, as we've merged in a number of smaller firms, even some larger firms over time, and some have fit very, very well, some maybe not quite as well, it's taken a little longer to instill that culture throughout those different events. What are some of the things in your experience that make that successful in trying to get that culture and those relationships cemented over time? What are some of the best ones ways to do that?
Mark:
The number one is communication. You have to spend the time together, communicate, make sure that you have covered all your bases for that. So trumping everything is communication. If you can't just sit down and have a cocktail with somebody and talk to them about where we're going, how we're going to get there and make sure that is in alignment, then it won't work, so don't even start there. And then take that a little further, think about it in the type of clients that really work well with us, sometimes we'll get an RFP and they're wonderful people, wonderful businesses, but it's just not a fit inside Rea & Associates for a multitude of reasons.
If you say yes to that RFP and put yourself in a position where you're going to try to do that work, [inaudible 00:10:42] RFP or that new firm brings in something that you're not comfortable with, there's a learning curve that takes you away from doing some of the other things that you're really great at. So I will say we have gotten so much better over the years of saying no to those good opportunities, to be great at some other ones.
Doug:
I love how you put that. That is fantastic. Now, it's not easy, but now during this pandemic it's a good time to maybe take a step back and reevaluate some of those relationships, because you see that.
Mark:
It is messy Doug. The vast, vast, vast majority of people I've worked with throughout my entire career and met through my life are wonderful people, and you want to be around them and you want to talk to them and you want to help them, it's just there's only so much time and energy in a workweek. And so you have to focus [inaudible 00:11:40].
Doug:
And some of the hardest ones we've been through are maybe long time relationships, maybe they've been around 20 years, but maybe their situation has evolved and certainly we've evolved as a firm, where it's maybe not quite the fit that it was 20 years ago. How do you get folks on board to address that in the right way and evaluate whether that's still a good fit in terms of client relationship?
Mark:
So inside the firm, what you have to do is you have to get people comfortable with the fact that we might move some relationships around, and it might be that we move them to... Maybe that relationship has evolved and that client's evolved, and that's no longer the correct partner to service that account, so it needs to move to a different partner. It might be that that relationship has evolved so much that we need to use our alliance and step them up to a different firm, or ask them to interview some other firms that we feel comfortable with, because it just isn't beneficial to both parties. Somebody's not getting out of it what they need, because it's got to be a win-win for both sides of the transaction. It goes back to communication and a comfort level of knowing that your heart's in the right place and trying to do the right thing.
Doug:
Yeah. And I think transparency with your client customer relationships too, I mean, you talked about the communication, but I learned that the hard way a long time ago, don't dance around the issue, let's be transparent and we can bring the issues to the table and maybe improve the relationship because there are things that neither party is aware of in terms of what we might be able to do to help each other. So I totally agree with you there, but it's not an easy thing culturally too, because you've got maybe some history and emotions involved and all those types of things. So it's a difficult process to go through, but I think that self-evaluation, self-awareness is a good thing.
Mark:
Doug, let me... so we had a real challenge in that about three, four years ago, in making sure that we had that trust, making sure that we have that ability to do some of those things and it really was difficult. We had a lot of meetings that were uncomfortable, that we challenged each other, we grew from, but I will tell you as soon as it starts going that way and as soon as you have people willing to put themselves at risk, vulnerable, I don't know how you want to say it, others see that and they go, "Okay, that, that worked out okay. And actually everybody's in a better place after that" and it picks up speed. And then you can roll that out to even more levels of the firm and it's really wonderful to come to an office, to come to a region and experience that.
Doug:
And here's another question I have is, how do you go through, if you're a typical owner managed business, how do you go through that? Does it have to start at the top, or do you let that bubble up? How do you get everybody to open up about some of those relationships and what's best?
Mark:
I'm a true believer that it's the tone at the top that sets the overall culture of this. So you can have some issues at different levels inside your business, but if the culture at the top isn't willing to address these issues, isn't willing to make themselves answer the tough questions and ask those tough questions, how are you ever going to get to that point? So you really have to be able to open up, look around and say, "Okay, what do we need to address?" And part of that Doug, though, is if you wake up that day and decide you're going to go down that, you may look around and say, "We have some people that just may not be willing to make themselves as vulnerable as you need to, to be a successful organization". Doesn't mean they're bad people, again, it just means that maybe the organization grew in a different path than they were taking. And you have to be willing to accept that.
Doug:
To your credit, this is one of the most awesome things you continue to emphasize and I really take to heart, and that's, it's okay to cry uncle. There's so many things that it's okay to raise your hand and say, "Oh hell, I don't know that, let's get the right people involved".
Mark:
Well, God blessed me with a limited mental capacity I think sometimes, so I had to learn that early in my career, that I had to surround myself with really great people, really great people, and maybe I can complement them on some things and they complement me on other things. So this is something that I learned really early with a lot of the wonderful people that I worked with over the years. And it's not bad. In public accounting you're going to get overwhelmed, it's not an "if", it's a "when" will you get overwhelmed. And what I hate seeing is when somebody is overwhelmed and then they start shutting down and internalizing it, that just tears me up to see that.
And as we grow and as we get larger, it's something you have to be aware of and you have to talk about all the time, because the last thing you want is a first, second or third year person feeling overwhelmed that they can't be successful, because they may be just great at tax, they may be great at audit, but we're asking them to do a bunch of different things. So skinny that down, pull a couple of clients back from them, let them catch their breath and then watch them take off and just [inaudible 00:17:28]. But let me tell you, it happens to partners too. It happens to partners.
Doug:
It happens to me every day.
Mark:
I had a moment this morning. I had a moment this morning and I called up one of our other regional presidents, I talked to him, I said, "Hey, here's what I'm facing, I'm not really sure where I should go, how I should do". And Rick gave me some advice and pointed me on a path, and it's like the sun came out for me. And now I'm like, "Okay yeah, I'm back at a hundred miles an hour and we can solve this issue".
Doug:
Yeah, I think that's awesome, I mean to have that mentality, because the easy thing is for everybody to, as you said, sort of shut down and internalize, but that's where you run into problems. Because then people start to think either, "I'm afraid to ask for help" or then it's this feeling of, "Well, it's my client relationship" or, "It's my problem to solve". And then you run around like 350 individual practitioners and that's the worst thing you can do in any business. So getting that teamwork promoted and all that is absolutely critical, critical. I've learned that the hard way too.
Mark:
Yeah, it's not fun. Again, that's a messy process to come to that realization, but inside a public accounting firm, clients really... A lot of people will say, "I want one contact". Well, they want one contact, but they want a lot of experts behind that context. And once they get comfortable with those experts, they will start automatically contacting those experts and if you can have multiple people inside your organization be able to talk to the clients, it just opens their whole world up to what the different experts can also offer to them. And I would say that that's in any business.
Doug:
Yeah, that's sage advice, you're right. Any relationship should be like that. We encounter this with clients, that's where they get really at risk, because maybe a key customer relationship is only handled or managed by one person, that's dangerous.
Mark:
Very dangerous. Very dangerous.
Doug:
Yeah. So risk mitigation too, if nothing else.
Mark:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Doug:
Yeah. So speaking of risk mitigation, how's the golf game going? Last time we played you were hitting it pretty well there.
Mark:
I think you beat me by 15 strokes, so it was good for my game, but you have a fantastic game. You took me out to, I think it's called Virtues, the little [inaudible 00:20:14] course, what a gorgeous course. Instantly one of my top three courses I've ever played on. We had a great conversation, we were with our cyber team, had a great conversation with those guys, beautiful weather, and I'm more of a social golfer than anything, but love it. I love it because you get out there and you get to spend a couple of hours with great people and you never know where the conversation goes, and it hits business, it hits personal, it hits this, it may hit politics if you don't watch out, you just never know where it's going to go.
Doug:
Yeah, that's the fun part. Always enjoy it, as you said, and just like our podcast today. Thank you for being on, really appreciate you coming on as a guest and look forward to having you on again next time, so I appreciate that Mark.
Mark:
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Doug:
And if you want more business tips and insight, or to hear previous episodes of unsuitable, visit our podcast page at www.reacpa.com/podcast and while you're there, sign up for exclusive content and show notes. Thanks for listening to this week's show. Be sure to subscribe to unsuitable on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to us right now, including YouTube. I'm Doug Houser, join us next week for another unsuitable interview from an industry profession.
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