Doug Houser:
From Rea & Associates Studio, this is unsuitable. A management financial services podcast for entrepreneurs, tenured business leaders, and others who are ready to look beyond the suit and tie culture for meaningful, measurable results. I'm Doug Houser, on this weekly podcast thought leaders and business professionals break down complicated and mundane topics and give you the tips and insight you actually need to grow as a leader while helping your organization to grow and thrive. If you haven't already, hit the subscribe button, so you don't miss future episodes. And if you want access to even more information, show notes, and exclusive content, please visit our website at www.reacpa.com/podcast, and sign up for updates.
Sales has a bad reputation. When you think about somebody who sells for a living, what type of person do you think about? Does the image of a pushy car salesman come to mind? Or maybe you're thinking about a conversation you had with a pushy telemarketer during dinner. Why does the very thought of sales leave such a bad taste in our mouths? In this episode of unsuitable, we are pleased to have a notable keynote speaker, best-selling author, and salesman extraordinaire Todd Bowen, with us to answer a few questions. All business owners and community leaders have pondered at one point or another. Hopefully, by the time today's show comes to an end, we will all be motivated to get out there and start selling.
Welcome to unsuitable, Todd.
Todd Cohen:
Doug, thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.
Doug:
Yes. And so glad to have you. Particularly, I think it's of utmost importance in this current environment where we're still dealing with all this remote stuff. And we were having a conversation before we started today about that very topic. And I'm a firm believer that you've got to be out there in front of people, I know you are too.
Todd:
Absolutely.
Doug:
Talk a little bit about your experience with that and what you've seen just through this period in terms of being disconnected and reconnected, all those things?
Todd:
Yeah. So I could use all the clichés, right? Unprecedented, and pivot, and all that nonsense, I'm tired of hearing it. And I think what I'm most tired of like most people are online Zoom meetings. I'm not saying bad things about Zoom, of course. I've had to pivot my, see, I used it. I've had to change my business a little bit, I did all my keynotes and all my workshops online last year. And anybody who understands the value of people connecting with people understands that we have definitely a critical element of not only building relationships, of building businesses, of differentiating over this last year. Because nothing, nothing will ever convince me that you can replace the face-to-face connection that you make when you're with somebody.
And we have lost that. And I fear Doug, that people have become complacent about it at the same time. I fear that the default setting, right? Which at one time was, "Yes, I'm going to go see somebody, I'm an auditor. I'm going to go see my client." "I'm a salesperson. I'm going to go make that initial call or deliver that proposal." I'm fearful that the default setting is changing and we have to not let that happen.
Doug:
Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree. I think the part of that, that I see is some corporations look at this like a cost reduction opportunity, right? Oh, I can reduce my footprint, my own physical footprint and, or my travel expenses for people.
Todd:
Yeah. I think that is perhaps essentially signing the death warrant on your company. Now I know that sounds draconian and dramatic, and I believe it to be true. Look, if you want to reduce people's contribution to the business in terms of here's the list of things that you're supposed to get done, and if you get them done, then you are now, I'm anointing you as being super productive. That's great. However, that's not good enough for the employee, that's not good enough for the associate. People want to feel connected to a business. They want to feel like they're doing something, they're making something happen that in my world, and when I talk about building a sales culture, it's really about understanding what you do that influences the customer's decision to ultimately say yes. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, "I'm proud to be overhead," right? So, and the longer we keep people apart, the more likely that is going to happen.
So all of these CEOs who are out there giddy with excitement, "This is great. I can sell my building." First of all, where's all that money going? Are you reinvesting in people and training? I bet not. Where's all that winding up? And second of all, you may not see it now. There is absolutely going to be a downstream impact on people's mental, emotional health, on people's interest in building relationships, the list goes on, Doug, about the things that we are at risk of losing. Because our most precious asset is not the output or the work, it's the people.
Doug:
Right.
Todd:
Make no mistake about it. If your people aren't engaged, your business is at risk.
Doug:
Yeah. There's no doubt about it. And I get particularly concerned, I have three 20 something children myself, but I get concerned about our young people in our business. And I try to make a conscious effort to drag them out there and we're going to get out and get in front of people. And for them just to be there and listen to the conversation, regardless of how much they, they're comfortable participating at this point. But just to hear that stuff, that's how you learn. And I think back to my start, that's how I learned the most. I failed a heck of a lot and thankfully had success, but that's the fun of it. Right?
Todd:
Well, and that's the whole point, it's so easy to say, here's why I'm good at what I do, and here's what I'm doing right. And that makes us feel good, right? And, not but, and how do we ultimately learn? By falling on our face. By demonstrating the humility and the vulnerability to use everything as a learning experience. And that really brings us back to the initial comment that you made about the stereotype of selling. And that's where it begins.
Look, as I always say in my keynotes and whatever, my workshops, every interaction is a selling moment because you're leaving an impression with somebody. Somebody is making a decision on you and by extension your company. If we take away that ability for people to see us, eyeball us, experience us, our body language, our facial expressions, how we're dressed, how we show up, our presence. If we reduce that to an online experience, what we're really doing is saying that it's okay for our company to risk commoditization. Because what separates us is the 3D, it's the person being in front of the person, that's where the sale begins. And I worry that that's going to get just blown aside.
Doug:
Yeah. It's ultimately that connection that you draw with the party on the other side of the table, so to speak.
Todd:
Absolutely.
Doug:
Builds that trust builds that relationship. That's ultimately what they're buying. They're buying that relationship.
Todd:
Look, you, you're, you're with an accounting firm, a professional services firm. And I do work with you all and a lot of other accounting firms and whatnot. And I will say that it's easy to find, I'll just use this as an example, it's really easy to find a qualified CPA, right? I could open up, I almost said open up the yellow pages, there is no such thing anymore. I can almost do a search and say, okay, I need to CPA. How many listings would come up in Columbus, in Cleveland, in Pittsburgh, in Philly, right?
Doug:
Right.
Todd:
The only thing that sets people apart is the people, is the person. So people come back to your organization that you, you know, not because somebody has got a lot of certificates on the wall, it's because of the relationship we've built, and that relationship is a selling relationship. It's built on, you know, us having enough opportunity to eyeball each other, to experience each other. And where that used to be commonplace, now it's the key differentiator between companies that will survive culturally and companies that will wither away. I am absolutely convinced of that.
Doug:
Yeah, I agree. Now for those though, that feel, they have an innate fear about doing that or having those kinds of vulnerable conversations, or getting in front of somebody, how do you help them overcome that type of feeling?
Todd:
So, great question, right? And when it comes to sales, again, this kind of gets back to your initial comment that people have such a negative impression, thoughts, the stereotype of sales, because how we have movies and TV shows. And nobody likes to be pushed. I teach this and I don't like the stereotype of salespeople. If I watch Glengarry Glen Ross or Tin Men or Boiler Room, my skin starts to crawl because that's why people have such a negative stereotype.
So what I teach and what I feel so passionately about is that everything we do is a selling moment, right? So our ability simply to be present, to be vulnerable, to understand that being vulnerable, being humble is a selling skill. Now you begin to see your behavior in a very different light. Now you begin to see how your behavior actually has a positive impact on people. So I say to somebody, you don't have to worry about being embarrassed, you have to worry if you don't use this moment to your advantage.
And so when I think about humility and I think about vulnerability, the other phenomenal skill that great salespeople have, which by the way is everyone, is our ability to acknowledge. Once you acknowledge that, "Hey, you know what? I screwed up." Or I made a mistake, or, you know what? I didn't know what I was talking about. What you have done is not lower yourself, you've strengthened your hand in the eyes of the customer. Now is this new? I don't know. Do we need to think about it more than ever in this ridiculous virtual world that we're all sealed up in? Absolutely.
Your customer is not judging you. Your client is not judging you. They're going to judge you if you try to run from the problem. But if you step into it and acknowledge it and say, "Guess what, I'm human." And not feel bad about it, you're actually going to improve that relationship and you'll sell more.
Doug:
That's such a great point. I totally agree with you. Because that person is just like us across the table, they have vulnerabilities and they make mistakes and all those things, but I get worried in today's, again, the virtual world, it's so easy to edit ourselves or edit how we appear online or whatever the case might be, that you don't get that genuineness anymore.
Todd:
Well, you don't, or at least it's harder to have it come across, right?
Doug:
Yeah. It's filtered.
Todd:
And filtered. Exactly. And as I said a moment ago, the danger of complacency, I call it the creepy crud of creeping complacency. Right? In fact, I did a Todd-cast on that, the only good use of my name is Ryan Smith podcast.
Doug:
Love it.
Todd:
And it all comes down to how are we showing up? So one of the modules I teach, in fact, I've taught at your firm, is the profound power of presence. And for example, for this particular experience with you today, Doug, I got up and I treated this as if I was going out to sit across the table from you. I've dressed appropriately, you can't see but I actually am wearing regular pants and regular shoes, I shaved. And I put on a nice pressed shirt because how I show up matters.
If we want to sell more, we have to engage more. And engagement begins before the first word is ever spoken. So when that video camera goes on, people have already made a buying decision, they see how you're showing up. I did a session with somebody last week and he wanted to actually sell me something and the camera went on and he was sitting there in a hoodie, not shaved and working on his phone, and said, "I'll be right with you." How do you think I reacted? And this isn't about being old school, this is about, would you show up in my office like that?
Doug:
Right, yeah. No.
Todd:
Would you show up in your office and sit in a chair in front of me and say, "Hold on, I've got to do an email."? So that call lasted about, I think I timed it, about four and a half minutes.
And I'm rather unfiltered since this is unsuitable, I'm rather unfiltered at times. I said, when you understand that how you showed up is disrespectful to me, then maybe we'll do business.
Doug:
Yeah. Well, hopefully at least that was a chance for that person to learn something. And if they acknowledge that failure, that to your earlier point, then they can move forward from that. But if they don't, if it's the, "Ah, what's wrong with this guy?"
Todd:
Exactly. And if they want to think that, that's fine. I'm at the point in my life where I don't really care.
Doug:
Yeah, agreed.
Todd:
I have my beliefs and I am so respectful as most thinking people are about when that camera goes on, or when that door opens, people have already made a buying decision without me ever saying a word. And that perhaps is the most important thing I could ever teach somebody.
Doug:
Yeah. And certainly, at the very least they've done, they've prejudged in some fashion because they've researched you, they've been on your website or perhaps watched one a video of a keynote, something like that.
Todd:
Whatever. That's right.
Doug:
So with all that information that we can get ahead of time nowadays, how do you help to overcome that the first time that you're in front of somebody face to face?
Todd:
Yeah. So eye contact, be aware of how you're physically showing up, make sure, and I'm assuming you're asking me the question in a virtual sense, right?
Doug:
Yeah, absolutely.
Todd:
Make sure, like I've done here, you're in a position where you are physically going to be the most productive. So as a keynote speaker, I'm actually happier walking around, like I am right now. So I have a desk that goes up, I have a green screen, I've set my office up to have this meeting with you in a way where I'm most comfortable because then I'll be best at communicating with you. Okay?
We have to make sure we get names right. There's nothing worse than saying somebody's name wrong because it says you didn't do your homework. Right?
Doug:
Right.
Todd:
And there's a whole series of things that I teach. And I would say they all fall under that bucket of presence. As I said a moment ago, eye contact is a huge thing. Don't be late and whatever you do, and this is all such basic stuff. Right? But we've all had to relearn it.
Doug:
Yeah.
Todd:
Because you can't fake presence. You know as well as I do when you're on a Zoom call with somebody, you see their eyes dart away, you know they're down there looking at the phone, you know when they go like this, when they're stretching, they're really just looking at their Apple watch, trying to surreptitiously glance at their email. Come on.
I think the thing that we have to remember is that people are smarter than we realize, sometimes. I can see when somebody's not engaged, even if it's a split second, you can't fake this stuff. In fact, I would suggest that being online takes more concentration than being in there with somebody live. So let's just go back to live. So, because that's the ultimate lazy, not kidding, of course. Right. But when we're live with somebody it's actually a little more relaxing.
Doug:
Right, I agree. Plus I think for me, it's always that adrenaline rush that I get beforehand as well. And you know, over the years you learn how to sort of harness that a bit, but that excitement that we get, whether it's a success or failure in that, that's what makes the day fun as well.
Todd:
Absolutely. Somebody said to me the other day, "I got 10 sales calls in today." I said, "Great. How many of them actually will go somewhere?" So my point being, I'm not saying the 10 calls weren't wonderful calls.
Doug:
Right.
Todd:
What I'm saying is I will take two calls a day in person with somebody rather than 10 Zoom calls or six Zoom calls a day, any day of the week. Because you and I both know what the ultimate result is going to be.
Doug:
Right. Yeah, no doubt. And I think, I'm curious to hear if you have any tools to try to reduce that? I know for myself, what I've tried to do is say, well, I'm only going to take Zoom calls on a certain day of the week/.
Todd:
Sure.
Doug:
Try to force it into the other, and that way I feel like I'm more efficient too. I don't know if that's right or wrong. It's just something I've been trying here lately.
Todd:
I actually applaud that because what you're doing is you're setting up boundaries. And if we don't set up boundaries, then people will run over us all day long. Okay? You and I both know that we are, and the world, we are slaves to our email. I remember when I first saw the email, when I worked at Xerox in 95 and thought this was the coolest thing, I curse that day every day. Right? The only people who call me anymore are telemarketers, or somebody looking for a donation or a contribution or whatever it might be. The reality of it is you're doing the right thing, Doug, we have to set boundaries around our time. Okay?
Doug:
Yeah.
Todd:
And I think the other thing to do here is, far too often, I see this a lot in your industry, people say, "Well, it's not tax season." I'm using this as an example, "It's not tax season so why would I need to see a customer?" And my point is having an agenda-free call is sometimes the best thing you can do, because how many times have we heard a client say, "You only call me during tax season." And I talk to my accountant throughout the year. She may not like it, but I enjoy it. I learn something every time and we have to take the extra step now.
I was mentioning earlier that I was in Columbus about a month ago and I called up some folks I know at your firm. And I said, "I'm in town, let's have breakfast." And you know, the response was, "This is great. I haven't seen anybody live in forever."
Doug:
Right.
Todd:
And we reaffirmed, and this is the point, we reaffirmed relationships, which reaffirms our ability to sell more down the road. And that's not something we should hide from. Everybody is so busy, I'm not trying to sell you something. First of all, yes we all are. We all are all the time. So just get over it. Right?
Doug:
Yeah.
Todd:
You have an agenda. I have an agenda. That's how the world goes around. It's how we go about doing it that matters.
Doug:
I totally agree. And I think sometimes again, taking that narrow view, it's somebody might say, well, how can I really measure the difference in my quote, unquote, hit rate or sales success in virtual versus in person?
Todd:
Right.
Doug:
They're just focused on those numbers instead of the benefit long-term that building that relationship brings.
Todd:
Yeah. It's, boy, I tell you, you're giving me such great questions here. It's just I get so jazzed up when I think about this stuff. Look, when I started selling in the dark ages let's say 1980 none of your business for Xerox, how were we measured? Cold calls. We left in the morning with a stack of cards and we were not allowed back in the office until we had given out every card. And some guys would try to jimmy the system and hand them out to people on the streets or throw them in the sink or sewer or whatever, "I gave out all my cards." Then they got smart and said, "Well you've got to come back with 50 cards. If you left with 50, you got to come back with 50, 50 cold calls."
And that's how we measured it, right? Because yes, there is some truth in the fact that sales is still a numbers game. I would argue that we have evolved dramatically since those days, sales is a relationship game. And I'm not the first person to say that and I won't be the last. As a keynote speaker, 40% of my business is repeat business, now think about that. Once somebody hires me for a keynote and I've spoken at your leadership retreat, your all-hands company offsite, well, you're not going to have me back the second year to do the same keynote. What will happen is maybe workshops or this or that like we've been doing, but that comes because of the relationship. Not because I'm continually cold calling you for more, that's cultivating the relationship. And that's the power of face-to-face, that's what sales is.
And here's why we're all in sales. Because every single day we're building relationships. Every single day, if we're with another human being we're selling ourselves.
Doug:
Absolutely. That is so well said. And I love the stuff that you put out there and for those that maybe aren't familiar, Todd, will you give us a quick plug on your website or where to get in touch with you if they'd like further info?
Todd:
Well, that would be great. So my website is my name, will not M-Y-N-A-M-E. It's my name, Todd Cohen, T-O-D-D. Somebody actually said, "I typed in myname.com and you didn't come up." And I thought to myself, you're kidding me, right? Please tell me you didn't take me seriously. My website is Todd Cohen, two D's, ToddCohen.com. That's probably the best way to find me. I'm atTodd@toddcohen.com, not complicated. Or in my old school way, just call me. I got a phone number, 215-275-3416. Just pick up the phone, I actually do answer my phone. Yes. By all means, call and talk to me, I'm a company of one and a half. My four-legged, chief marketing officer is napping right behind me. And until she needs dinner in about three hours.
Doug:
I love it. And boy I could sit here and talk about this all day with you, Todd, it's always tremendous. And your insight is I think, spot on.
Todd:
Thank you.
Doug:
And just if nothing else, I think we all need to take a step back and reflect on these things.
Todd:
Yeah.
Doug:
[inaudible 00:24:05].
Todd:
If I could just say as a closing comment, if you will, and you can tell I'm not lacking in passion on this point. Think carefully about the people in your organization and their contribution to the business. They're the reason why we're either top of mind or not. It's not how good your product is, you make a great product. I got it. It's really the people that keep you top of mind.
And so if we're not having people with people, and people with customers, is it going to be easier or harder to stay top of mind? It's a rhetorical question, Doug. You know the answer to that. So cautionary note to all the CEOs and business leaders out there, sales happens face to face. And I'll leave it at that.
Doug:
So, so true. Yes, indeed. Well, Todd, thanks again. And look forward to more your insight and having you on again here before too long.
Todd:
I would love to. Yeah, that would be great. I'll bore your listeners a little more next time.
Doug:
No, it's great stuff. Next time we'll talk a little bit more about Philly as well.
Todd:
Yeah, yeah, sure. We have cheesesteaks, we have pretzels and we have fans that boos Santa Clause.
Doug:
Love it. Absolutely. If you want more business tips and insight, or to hear previous episodes of unsuitable, please visit our podcast page at www.reacpa.com/podcast. And while you're there, sign up for exclusive content and show notes. Thanks for listening to this week’s show, be sure to subscribe to unsuitable on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, or wherever you're listening to us right now, including YouTube. I'm Doug Houser. Join us next week for another unsuitable interview with an industry professional.
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