Doug Houser:
From Rea & Associates studio, this is unsuitable, a management and financial services podcast for entrepreneurs, tenured business leaders, and others already to look beyond the suit and tie culture for meaningful, measurable results. I'm Doug Houser. On this weekly podcast, thought leaders and business professionals break down complicated and mundane topics and give you the tips and insight you actually need to grow as a leader while helping your organization to grow and thrive. If you haven't already, hit the subscribe button, so you don't miss future episodes.
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Persuading somebody to change their mind about anything or to make a change in some aspect of their life is not an easy task, but it can be done. Brian Ahearn has literally written the book on the art of persuasion and influence, it's called Persuasive Selling for Relationship Driven Insurance Agents. His first book, Influence PEOPLE, was an Amazon bestseller and was named in the top 100 influence books of all time. Today. Brian is joining us to explain how your ability to master persuasion has a direct impact on your bottom line. Welcome to unsuitable, Brian.
Brian Ahearn:
Thanks, Doug. It's great to be back with you.
Doug:
I always love having you on. It's just such a pertinent topic, obviously, in today's world and something I think we should all take more time to understand and certainly, you have, I mean, you've made this, your life's work, which I think is just awesome and fascinating at the same time. So talk a little bit about this concept. I always love hearing this about Pre-Suasion that you discuss.
Brian:
Well, Pre-Suasion is what we do before we do the thing we're going to do. I like to call it setting the stage. It's what can we do to mentally, emotionally, physically prepare somebody for what's going to come next in our attempt to ethically persuade them. And I can give you a real quick, the best Pre-Suasion story I have has to do with my wife. When we met, on the very first day of work, I was going out with someone. Within a few weeks, I was no longer going out with that person, started dating my wife, fell in love. Everything was awesome until the old girlfriend called, and it really threw me for a loop. And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And I was back and forth for months. And when I say months, it was like six months of indecision between these two women.
Well, I still worked with Jane, and I saw her in the break room one day and asked how she was doing, and she said fine. And that's when she announced never again, we're not going out. I'm tired of this indecision. But the problem was I had settled in my heart that she's the one I wanted to be with. In fact, I was thinking I wanted to marry her. So I knew I was going to need to do something big. And I didn't understand Pre-Suasion all those decades ago, but I realized I tapped into it because I asked her if I could take her out for dinner on her birthday. And she did agree to that. So on her birthday, I sent a dozen roses to work. She liked that. Showed up at her apartment, dozen roses bottle of wine. She really liked that we get ready to leave. We go downstairs, and waiting for us was a Silver Cloud Rolls-Royce and chauffeur. He drove us to downtown Columbus to a place you're probably familiar with, which used to be the One Nation restaurant.
Doug:
Oh sure. Yeah.
Brian:
So we took that glass elevator up over 30 floors, had a romantic dinner, looking at the skyline, took the glass elevator back down and into the back of the Rolls, I popped the question, and she said, yes. And the point of that story is I could have asked her that day in the break room. I could have said, "Jane, I'm sorry for the indecision. I love you. Will you marry me?" And I'm sure she would have said no, but I persuaded her by putting this romantic atmosphere together, which certainly made it much easier. And that's really what Pre-Suasion is. What can we do before we make a persuasive ask that might put somebody in that mental, physical, emotional state that makes them more open to saying yes?
Doug:
That's so important. Is kind of, I guess, another way to look at that as sort of reading your audience right and understanding, what might be important to them or how do you make it? The point you're trying to get to is most palatable to them. I think that's fascinating.
Brian:
And its application for this all over. When I do training, particularly in the online COVID world that we found ourselves in, you had to do things a little bit differently. And so, I always make sure I connect with people on LinkedIn. So we get a little back and forth messaging. They see my profile, have them listen to a podcast. Now they are hearing and getting a little familiar with me, get them something like my book in advance. They feel like they have this gift. All of this happens before we start the training, but it builds this momentum so that there's excitement. And then if I do my job, well, there's more excitement about what I've shared, but these are things that everybody can do, but most people don't think about.
Doug:
Absolutely. And so talk a little bit about that. That approach to the importance of persuasion when it comes to selling I often think of selling, I don't necessarily always use that word. It's having a conversation and getting those comments and those emotions and those things to come out of the person that I'm talking to. Does that play into the persuasion when it comes to selling?
Brian:
Absolutely. Because I think Brian Tracy said it best. Brian Tracy, for those who may not be familiar, very well-known sales trainer, authored many books on selling says that selling is the process of persuading a person that your product or service is of more value to him or her than the price you're asking. And I think it's a great definition. I believe persuasion is the foundation of selling. It's that art of speaking with somebody, getting them to maybe do something that they wouldn't have done otherwise in the absence of your communication. So how we communicate might make all the difference in that prospecting call to where they say, "That sounds interesting. Let's actually meet."
How I communicate in that first meeting might give me the opportunity to come back and do what we might call qualifying and all throughout then presenting and dealing with objections, negotiating, closing, getting referrals, every one of those requires a yes in that process. So all of these little yeses ultimately end up in sales and then hopefully referrals. So it's incredibly important that we understand how people think and behave and that we're willing to adjust how we communicate so that we can have that best opportunity to show them that what we're offering is ultimately going to be in their best interest if we've done our qualification well.
Doug:
I think that's fascinating. And so very well said. Talk about that entire process as you go through initial meetings and discussions, negotiations, all those different things. I mean, I've been a part of so many different conversations like that, where a salesperson might go into what I call product dump they come out and it just immediately throw up all over you with here are all these things that we do for example, and it's just you've lost them right out of the gate. So talk a little bit about that entire sort of dynamic that timeline and process that really cements that persuasion and that persuasive selling.
Brian:
So I generally view the sales process is having eight steps and keeping on what it is that you're selling. What parts of that process may be condensed, but they all need to be looked at and focused on in their own right. So the goal of prospecting is simply to gain somebody's attention, share enough information that they're open to having that first meeting. And then, in that first meeting, obviously, building rapport is incredibly important. How much somebody likes you might not be the deciding factor of making the sale, but it's almost a guarantee that if they don't like you, you're not going any further, so understanding how to build rapport in that first meeting.
Now, when we talk about qualifying a prospect, that may be part of the first meeting, depending on how long certain sales cycles are. Sometimes sales cycles are literally one meeting sometimes they're years. But understanding the right psychology and how to properly qualify, then getting the opportunity to present, here's what we believe our solution is for the issue that you're facing that we think could make your life or your business better. And on the heels of the presentation, you may move right into dealing with objections and negotiating and closing. But each of those also needs to be focused on, in their own right, because they required a different mentality and different psychology.
If you do get to the point where you do close that sale, then how is it that you gain referrals and Doug, I'm not a fan of closing the sale and saying, "Well, Doug, since we're doing business, now, how about you give me the names and numbers of some people who might want to do business with me." You've not even had an opportunity to see if I and my company are going to live up to the promises that we've made throughout the sales cycle, which better ways to use psychology and maybe say something like, "Doug, I'm sure salespeople have asked you before for referrals at the close, and I'm not going to do that. I want you to have an opportunity to experience us, our product, our service, whatever it is that we've sold. But what I would like to ask is this favor."
If, six or nine months from now, you're really happy that you made this decision, would you be open to talking about referrals? And I think at that point, almost everybody will. If I'm really happy with having made this switch shirt, why wouldn't I? But I do that very specifically to plant the seed so that when I call you in six or nine months, and I find out how things are going, and you say that you're happy and I can say, "Doug, do you remember when we had that conversation before? But we set a time next week to talk about referrals." And again, I don't want to just ask you right there because I want you to have time to think about it. I want you to give me some quality names that might want to do business. So there's a whole psychology to every one of these steps. Very similar to what I just shared.
Doug:
That's fascinating. I love the psychology and, just frankly, that forethought of that whole process. You're always planting the seed for the next conversation and sort of following this path. So there's some real forethought and design that goes into that. That's great stuff.
Brian:
Its intimidating. It's less intimidating for that other person. They're not on their heels [inaudible 00:11:34]. I don't know who can I give a name and number of?
Doug:
You've really kind of defang the situation. I guess this is how I look at it. Brian, talk a little bit about your deal model for persuading different personalities because obviously, we all experience different kinds of folks out there, and you have to adapt and be able to work with all different kinds of personalities and approaches. So how do you deal with that?
Brian:
Well, the same approach with everybody doesn't work. You're different than I am and we're probably both different than our friend Jack. And so somebody approaching us all exactly the same way is probably not going to work. The deal model that I came up with the kind of follows a disk-type approach. We take a look and say, as the person that you're working with are they more task-oriented, just really focused on getting stuff done, or are they really relational? That's usually pretty easy to decipher. And then the other thing to decipher is, are the people who really want to be in control? Or are they those more laid-back people who are more focused on their own self-control? They don't have to control situations? There's another demarcation.
And with that, then you have four personalities, and I call it DEAL because it represents driver, expressive, amiable, and logical. And I think it's very easy to remember because we deal with people and salespeople hope to close deals. So that's why I came up with that acronym. But then we talk about what psychology is going to be most effective with that person who's that driver personality. It's going to be different than dealing with somebody who's amiable or someone who's logical. And if you can get a handle on that and you're comfortable with the psychology that I teach, then you can be a lot more effective with these different personality types.
Doug:
I think that's great. And trying to go into a meeting and think of that ahead of time. Not that you're going to know. I mean, as you said, you can do some homework in today's world. There's so much information available. You could try to do some homework on that individual, but you have to be willing to try to recognize that those personality differences in that conversation and adapt to that. That's one thing I can tell you. I learned the hard way over time. It's interesting. Now talk about this other concept you have, Listening STARS. I love this one. This is phenomenal.
Brian:
So listening is a critical component of selling, and in all the decades that I have been involved in sales and teaching sales, all the literature I've read is pretty consistent that good salespeople talk 25, maybe 30% of the time. Now that might be very different than putting some of your listeners have experienced where they think the salesperson never let me get a word in edgewise. They did the data dump out. Something would stick, but really good salespeople understand that if they ask the right questions, it allows the other person to feel in control of that conversation, which they are. But when they're really listening, then they're going to glean what they need to know, and they're going to know the next questions to ask. And so I've come up with what I call Listening STARS. And again, this is an easy-to-remember acronym.
The five points of the STAR, the S, means, stop, just stop everything you're doing so you can give 100% of your attention to the person you're communicating with. The T is tone focus on tone of voice because that indicates quite often emotional state. The A in stars is to ask clarifying questions. The one time where I think it's okay for people to jump into that conversation is to say, "Hey, Doug, hang on a second. I'm not sure I understood what you just meant there." And then you have an opportunity to help me clarify that understanding, but it also shows I'm engaged in the conversation.
And then the R is, as you get towards the end of that conversation, restate in your own words, and if you can tie emotion to it, how somebody feels about the situation and what it is that they're trying to convey. And hopefully, the person says, "That's it. That's exactly what I'm saying." But if they don't, then you can say, "Well, help me understand. I must've missed something." And you can circle back, and kind of go back through the process.
The final letter in stars, the S, stands for scribble, which is just taking notes. Don't write the next great American novel. Bullet points on things so you can come back, ask questions, it'll jog your memory. But I think if people really just did those five things, which are all a choice, it's just a choice to stop. It's a choice to focus on tone, et cetera. If they make that choice, they will be much, much better when it comes to listening, and they will have a competitive advantage over the companies and individuals they compete against because they'll catch so much more information.
Doug:
I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, that's certainly the case and my experience, particularly when you come to, for example, in the world I deal within, you're dealing with owner-managed, closely-held businesses. They're very passionate about what they do and take a lot of, certainly a lot of pride in that. So you want to let that come out, let them speak about it. Let that come out, and you learn so much you learn what's important to them and then how you can hopefully best help them achieve their goals. I love that acronym, Listening STARS.
When we talk about the persuasion of selling, we're not just talking about obviously products necessarily or services, but I think about the applications of this in everyday life. We have a lot of difficult conversations in today's world, for example, let's talk about vaccines, the COVID vaccine, and there's a lot of certainly misinformation, but I'm of the belief, the more of us that are vaccinated, the better we can be as a whole society overall. You don't have to necessarily tie it to that topic strictly, but how would you approach a say difficult or personal topic like that in persuading somebody?
Brian:
I've always found one of the best phrases that you can use is I think we both want the same thing because when we talk about both wanting the same thing, we're really kind of unitizing what we're sharing an identity that we want this, and I've seen this work really well for some of my clients. The best example I can think of many years ago, I was in St. Louis in my two-day workshop at the end was strategizing with a father, his two sons, and his daughter, who were all owners of the insurance agency. And they were looking to move from the suburbs into the city. They'd always been in the St Louis area. They wanted to support the city, but they were getting a lot of pushback from somebody who was part of the historical preservation society. And it was over what seemed like piddly, things like the height of the fence that was around their parking lot, where the doors were going to be in the building, what street they would face, and just things that seemed so minor. But they meant something to each side.
And as I was listening to them, I said, "It seems to me that you both want the same thing. She wants, she is the person with the city, wants a building that people will be proud of. When they're driving by in the City of St. Louis, you want a building that your employees will be proud to work at, that your customers will be proud to come to. And I said I think that's where you need to meet. So the next day, they went into their meeting, and they'd been having conversations for months about this. And one of the sons told me when it got really tense, he pulled that out, and he said, "I think we want the same thing. You want the building that you'll be proud of. We want the building that we'll be proud of. Can't we find a way to make this work?"
And the lady said, "Thank you. I've never drawn a line in the sand that I wasn't willing to erase or cross. I appreciate your willingness to work with me." And they got it done. And Doug, what warms my heart the most was I know for maybe a generation, I mean, it could be 20, 25 years. Their grandchildren may end up working in that agency that I had an impact on that. That what I shared with them was to help them persuade this person that we need to make this thing work. That's really cool.
Doug:
That is awesome. And I think that's ultimately to start with that end in mind, both parties, for example, are trying to get to this the same goal, if we have a common goal. So it's just about finding the path to get there. So that's such a phenomenal approach. I love that.
Brian:
I think one other thing that people can do, too, though, is just to simply ask if you were that client, what do you need to look like a rock star coming out of this negotiation? And hopefully, you'll be honest with me. If you don't ask me, I could say, "Could I have a moment to share with you, Doug, what I need when we find the overlap we build?"
Doug:
I think that's such a great approach, and it's transparent too. That way, you're not dancing around the real issue at hand. So I love that. Well, Brian, before we go, I want to give you a chance where can folks find you reach out to you via the website. I know you've got some books out there. Give us a plug-in where we can get ahold of you.
Brian:
Well, obviously LinkedIn, so anybody listening to the podcast, please feel free to reach out and connect. If you don't tell me that you heard me on the podcast, I guarantee I'll come back and say, "How'd you find me?" I like to understand why people are reaching out. The other opportunity would be through my website, which is influencepeople.biz. If you go out there, there are tons of free resources I've been on more than 100 podcasts. If that's your thing, I've got videos. I've been blogging for more than a dozen years, every single week. And then there are links to things like my books, so tremendous number of resources out there.
Doug:
That's fantastic. And I will say, as a result of the last time that Bryan was on, which I always love having him on. And we'll certainly do so again, a long-lost friend and professional colleague of mine. A long-lost friend of Brian's and former professional colleague saw Brian on the episode, and they've reconnected. So that's great to see too. So you never know what you're going to find here on unsuitable, as well as on Brian's website as well. So I just wanted to throw that out there. And Jack, if you're listening, look forward to seeing you sometime again soon. So, Brian, thanks. It's a pleasure as always, and your insights, and to me, the way that you make all of this so simple and straightforward yet meaningful, is just fantastic. Thanks for cutting through all of the noise for us.
Brian:
It was my pleasure. I really appreciate being back on the show, Doug, thank you.
Doug:
Absolutely anytime, and if you want more business tips and insight, or to hear previous episodes of unsuitable, visit our podcast page at www.reacpa.com/podcast. And while you're there, sign up for exclusive content and show notes. Thanks for listening to this week's show. Be sure to subscribe to unsuitable on apple podcasts, Google podcasts, or wherever you're listening to us right now, including YouTube. I'm Doug Houser, join us next week for another unsuitable interview with an industry professional.
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