Doug Houser:
From Rea & Associates Studio, this is unsuitable, a management and financial services podcast for entrepreneurs, tenured business leaders, and others who are ready to look beyond the suit and tie culture for meaningful, measurable results. I'm Doug Houser. On this weekly podcast, thought leaders and business professionals break down complicated and mundane topics and give you the tips and insight you actually need to grow as a leader, while helping your organization to grow and thrive.
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The tough part about developing your organization's employee development strategy is forgetting the fact that one size can't fit all. Today, Annie Yoder, principal and director and development at Rea & Associates is here to talk to us about how you can balance employee development on a broad scale, and the differences between coaching, mentorship, and advocacy. Welcome to unsuitable, Annie.
Annie Yoder:
It's great to see you, Doug. Why are you so dressed up?
Doug:
Oh, you know I had to meet with some attorney this morning.
Annie:
Aw, there it is. There it is.
Doug:
Yeah. I guess once in a while, you've got to do it.
Annie:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Doug:
Yeah.
Annie:
Thanks for having me, I'm excited.
Doug:
Absolutely. I'm so thrilled to have you on because I just think what you do in terms of leading the development for our organization, and really your insight as a thought leader is just tremendous. I'm hopeful that we can share some of those insights with our adv today. Thank you for being with us.
Annie:
Absolutely. Willing to do that, for sure.
Doug:
Yeah. One of the things that I think is so, so interesting is this concept that we're dealing with during COVID. We've had to obviously pivot very quickly. Can you talk about what we're doing with regard to training during a pandemic? Obviously, none of us saw this coming. But, what have we done, or what do you recommend for folks out there, to change their practices with training?
Annie:
Yeah. I think Doug, you and I, and whomever else could probably spend an entire day just talking about that particular topic. It's been amazing and fun to watch our organization. It's been a massive team effort, first and foremost. There is no one person tackling all of this.
But, forcing things to virtual just has its opportunities and its challenges. We've watched the expenses, from a travel standpoint, drop on our P&L. But then, on the other side of it, ramping up the technology, and making sure you have the right platforms to engage your audience.
I think a solid example for us is we have an all-hands retreat every year, and the most fun and exciting about the retreat is physically being together and having fun together.
Doug:
Right.
Annie:
So trying to shift that, we did our best this year flipping to virtual, trying to have engagement via the platform and all of those things. Resoundingly, we got good feedback about how we did it, and how the team flipped to virtual.
So I think really, truly, the advice for those listening is you need to know your culture, first and foremost. You need to know the values of the organization, so you can tie your training, whether virtual or in-person, back to those values.
One of our core values, although it's not specifically written in the Rea Way, is connection. Make sure you connect. The undertones are in the Rea Way, so we did our best as we flipped to virtual, to still remain connected across the organization. I think that's super important.
Doug:
Yeah. I think it's incumbent upon all of us to really make that extra effort. I know with our teams and stuff, when we're talking about either assurance engagements, or tax, or cyber, anything, keep your teams informed. Make sure that we're talking more so than ever, make that extra-
Annie:
Absolutely. I was just going to say, the mediums of communicating, too, can just be overwhelming. The feedback we get is, "Well, you're training via email." You're trying to push things out via email, over and over again. I think that's where we, as an organization, have lots of room to grow, via the intranet, and Teams, and different modes of communication so we capture multiple people. That's that one size fits one, not everybody's going to learn via communication, the written word. How else can we get mediums out there? I think that's really good for organizations to think about, too. [inaudible 00:05:27] learn a little differently, so make sure you're thinking in different buckets.
Doug:
I think that's a great way to look at it. Because you're right, some of us would prefer to read and do it that way. Others, you've got to be in-person, have that attention there to grab your thought, and make you move in different ways, and think in different ways. You can't have that one.
One of the things I worry about, it's not so much for somebody like me, an "oldster," I guess, but our young people. We continue to hire, obviously, and have interns, and first and second-year people. How do we make sure they're developing, and that they're attached to our organization in the right way?
Annie:
Yeah, onboarding is directly tied to the development of the organization, and we're going to be going through a continued overhaul and maintenance of our onboarding process. That's just a tiny piece of it.
But, I think really it is making sure there's some core courses, core training that everybody flows through. So when they come into the organization, the first and most important thing is on the job training, and do they feel like they belong. Because whether or not we throw technical training, or they're learning in a machine shop how to work on a piece of equipment, that doesn't matter. Do they feel like they belong in the organization? And again, back to that word connection. Are they connecting to people in the organization? And that's the non-classroom training stuff that we have to continue to get better at and continue to develop, as well as the organizations we support, and the ones that are listening today.
Doug:
How do you try to do things to gain that emotional attachment or that connection for an employee? I mean, that's so hard and we can't be as in-person as we'd like.
Annie:
Yeah. It's finding ways, virtually, physically seeing people on the screen is super important, so that you can see facial expressions, body language. I'm not saying anything new here, we know we can get more from that. Also, quite frankly, it's just caring enough to ask questions. Be curious about the person on the other side of the screen. It doesn't have to be all business, all the time. There are people that are a little more guarded with those types of communications, and that's okay, too. It's just going to take a little bit more time.
My office looks like a bit of a mess, but if it were you, Doug, I'd hope that I might see a picture behind you and say, "Hey, I see you like the Bucks."
Doug:
Right.
Annie:
"Let's chat a little bit about the game last week." There are all sorts of little cues that you can find in that conversation, or behind the person, or that they say. You just need to dig a little deeper, and I think asking lots of questions can get you there.
Doug:
Yeah, I think that's a great way to do it. I know when I'm out visiting with clients or prospective clients, that's one of the first things I try to do is look around, when I walk in their building, their lobby, and just notice what's there. To your point, what pictures are there, maybe they've got some awards, or plaques, or whatever the case might be.
Annie:
Right.
Doug:
There's a lot of fun stuff we've all figured out how to do, too, like virtual happy hours, things like that.
Annie:
Oh yeah. Yeah. Our committee of awesomeness is doing awesome things down in our Dublin office, for sure. It's pretty cool to watch.
Doug:
Yeah, it is fun. Abbey, who's heading up that committee, is one of our podcast producers so kudos to her.
Annie:
Absolutely.
Doug:
We love the name, too, right? Committee of awesome.
Annie:
Absolutely. Another acronym for us.
Doug:
Yes, that's what we need right?
Annie:
Yeah.
Doug:
So all this can seem a bit overwhelming if you're an organization, so where do you start with some of this?
Annie:
What's interesting is I've had some conversations with organizations and they've asked that very question. I go back to the beginning. You need to have your core values, which need to remain intact over time, you need to have those defined. And then, you're going to have a culture that evolves. As the organization evolves, your culture is going to evolve and that's perfectly okay. But, if you can go back to those values as an organization, if you don't have those intact or written down somewhere, get a team together to start that conversation. Because the values are going to tie to your strategy, and then when you have your strategy ... Even before that, excuse me, you're going to have a leadership team that is helping drive the organization. And then, you can start to connect your development all back to your values, and to your strategy as an organization.
But, if you're trying to boil the ocean, don't bother. Us as an organization, this has been a work in progress for five years, and it's going to be into perpetuity. There's no finish line with the development of employees. So if you can figure out what are your values, what is your strategy, and then start to tie from there. I would urge people to think about the new people coming into the organization. How do you get them to belong? And then, how do you connect more development from layer to layer in the organization?
For instance, how does the training development at the new hire level tie to the mid-level, tied to the upper level, and then ultimately into the C-suite, et cetera. You want those things to tie to one another.
Doug:
Yeah, that certainly makes a lot of sense. It doesn't really have to be complex for people either, right? They can come up with a couple of simple core values, and build that into who they are as an organization, and take it from there.
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah, think about communication in a virtual environment. Communication was imperative before, it's even more imperative now. If that's one of your core values, you don't have to go at it alone. You could Google it, and there are 1000 people that could come into your organization and help ramp up communication skills inside the organization. So getting to know the vendors that can support you, super important. Don't try to do this alone, because there are so many people that are entrenched in learning, and the development of people, that are super awesome at this. Make sure you lean on those folks.
Doug:
That's great advice, not trying to go it alone necessarily.
Annie:
Yeah.
Doug:
One of the things that you talk about often, and this just is so fascinating to me, and that's this concept of coaching versus mentorship versus advocacy. Those are very different, right?
Annie:
They are.
Doug:
In many ways. So talk a little bit about that.
Annie:
Yeah, they are very different, and I think if you don't know the difference, sometimes people use those words interchangeably. There are some pretty solid lines between coaching, mentoring, and advocacy.
Coaching, typically, is really focused on ... It's assigned. That's the best thing if you think of usually a coach is assigned to you. You're talking about career development or job performance. How did I do on this engagement or this project that I worked on? You're going to start to creep into some career development, of course, but it's very focused on how am I doing in this role now, and starting to creep into career development.
Mentorship, you ask for that relationship. But a lot of times it's not, "Hey, will you be my mentor?" It naturally happens over time, but there tends to be a connection between the individual and often someone that is more tenured in their career. Because you tend to lean on that person when you have questions. I have many mentors outside of our organization that I lean on frequently. But those relationships weren't me asking, "Will you be my mentor?" It was I started with a question or a lunch, and that relationship built over time. Forced mentorship doesn't work well, typically. You want that relationship to be really solid. And I'm sure, Doug, that you've had many mentors in your career.
Doug:
Absolutely. I've got one that I've had probably longer than any, and I still rely on that person today. It's just, more than anything, you get together and you have a conversation. It's just that, for whatever reason, their insight or their way of thinking really resonates with me, and it connects, and it forces me to take a step back and think, just evaluate and look at the bigger picture.
Annie:
Yeah.
Doug:
This isn't somebody who has done what I've done, necessarily or held the same career path, but it's just more of a mode of thinking, I guess.
Annie:
Right. Right, they challenge the way you think. And sometimes, can even call you on the carpet when you're running down a road that you shouldn't.
And just real quickly, advocacy, I feel like not a lot of people really think about advocacy and the importance of it. Advocacy is earned, so that's the word I use and connect with advocacy. A lot of times, you don't even know you have advocates. It's the conversation going on when the door is closed and there are performance discussions happening, and there are career discussions happening, and someone in that room is talking about you. You earn advocacy. And certainly, in public accounting, it is incredibly important, and many, many organizations. Advocacy, think of it as this is not hanging on the coat strings of someone, this is someone helping to pull you up, and slowly you are earning that advocacy through that relationship as well.
Doug:
I find this one interesting, too. I agree with you, I think those conversations, of course, go on much more than we ever think they do, right?
Annie:
Right, right.
Doug:
But, in terms of somebody who your advocate for within your organization, do you think it's fair to continue to have an openness with regard to that advocacy? Or, is it better than it's maybe secret? Or, either way, I guess.
Annie:
Yeah.
Doug:
I find that interesting.
Annie:
I think that's a really good question and something we could certainly ponder. I can tell you, those that I advocate for, I usually am very transparent with them. Because it's almost a mix of advocacy and a mentorship relationship that intertwines with each other. There are times that I'm like, "The reason that I'm asking you to be on this committee," as an example, "is because I'm advocating for you, that you have a seat at the table, and this is a way for you to have a seat at the table."
I would say, Doug, maybe it's a little mix of both because there's so many conversations happening about development that, often times, those people don't know that they're being advocated for.
Doug:
Yeah, I know. I've got some like that. It's interesting, they've evolved in different ways. There's some that I'm maybe a secret advocate for and haven't necessarily told that person. I probably will at some point. And I have others that, again, it's very transparent like you said, "Hey, I'd really like to see you involved in this," or that kind of thing.
Annie:
Right, right.
Doug:
How do we make it... You talked about mentorship, and advocacy, those are more, let's just say informal, I guess, in some ways. Coaching obviously, though, is much more of a documented type of process. How have you seen that evolve? And, where do we go moving forward, as we talk about integrating additional young people, and diversity, and all those things? How do we evolve the documentation that we do around our coaching?
Annie:
Yeah, I think this is a super interesting topic for me because if you go back to the first industrial revolution, or go back to when the manufacturing boom started to happen, a lot of performance management started to come out of that. It was how many widgets am I producing, or how many hours am I clocking, so it was a very, "Let's talk a year-end, and we can look at your production and that's how you performed." Well, that moved into the time of GE, the nine-box grid, all of those things. The evolution has been very interesting to look at it.
We're now in a period of performance management that ties to the word agile. You hear that in software development a lot, that concept of being agile, or the agile process. So performance management, over the last I'll say 10 years, has moved that direction. What does that mean for us, what's it mean for those listening? It just means more continuous feedback.
What's interesting to me, and I think very good about that, is that ties to what the new generations coming into the workforce are demanding. "We want continuous feedback." So as an organization, as Rea & Associates, we are actually in the midst of ... we're going to overhaul our performance management and move to a more agile approach. A lot of the larger firms, large organizations already are in that agile process. It just takes time, effort, and a lot of times a platform, a piece of technology. We don't have to have the technology to help support that agile approach.
Doug:
Yeah. Is more of that going to be occurring with smartphones and things like that?
Annie:
Yeah.
Doug:
It's beyond the traditional, "Hey, let's sit down, and here's this form that we fill out," right?
Annie:
Right. It's not just the mobile, but integrations with things like Outlook. We're always in email. So let's say you had a quick dialogue with a coach via Outlook. Well, I need to get that into the right place so I can refer back to that when we're having a mid-year, a final eval, et cetera, you can push that right into a piece of technology, into a platform, so that you can refer back to it.
Then, you take performance management and the concept of engagement, and you can tie those things together as well. This is, again, super interesting because then you're looking at the whole lifecycle of the employee with performance and engagement. Yes.
Doug:
Even you think about somebody, to your point, we communicate in so many ways now, whether it's text or all those things, so the importance of capturing all of that is tremendous.
Annie:
It is. Yeah, it's super cool. But we have to be careful, I think, as the people people and those looking at the data, that you don't get too caught up with the data. Data can tell you one thing, but what's reality? And, what are you seeing, and what are the stories you're hearing? We just have to be cognizant, I think, of data is good, but how you interpret that data still takes a human brain and we need to stay focused on that human aspect of it.
Doug:
Yeah, that's so, so very true. It's easy to get lost in the technology and the data, that's for sure, and forget the human side.
Annie:
Right, yeah.
Doug:
Annie, this is just tremendous insight. I greatly thank you for being on. I could talk all afternoon about this stuff.
Annie:
Yeah, me too.
Doug:
Yeah, it's fantastic. I think I encourage all organizations out there to really take a step back and think about what they're doing in terms of some of these topics we've talked about today. A fun plug, we do have an HR consulting practice that can help companies with a lot of these things, too. To Annie's point, it's not something you have to tackle alone.
Annie:
That's true. Yeah.
Doug:
Get your experts involved.
Well, thank you, Annie.
Annie:
Of course.
Doug:
Again, just tremendous fun having you on.
Annie:
Yeah, appreciate it, Doug.
Doug:
We'll certainly do it again soon, and do even a deeper dive into some of these topics.
Annie:
Yeah, sounds great.
Doug:
If you want more business tips and insight, or to hear previous episodes of unsuitable, visit our podcast page at www.reacpa.com/podcast. And, while you're there, sign up for exclusive content and show notes. Thanks for listening to this week's show. Be sure to subscribe to unsuitable on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to us right now, including YouTube. I'm Doug Houser. Join us next week for another unsuitable interview with an industry professional.
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