Mark: Welcome to unsuitable on Rea Radio, unique financial services and business advisory show that challenges your old school business practices and the traditional business suit culture. On this show you’ll hear from industry professionals who will challenge you to think beyond the suit and tie culture while offering you meaningful, modern solutions to help you enhance your company’s growth. I’m your host Mark Van Benschoten. Who are you? How would you describe yourself? How would others describe you? When they do describe you, are you happy with their answers?
Don’t worry, I’m not going to ask you to bring up your psychiatrist here and start talking about your childhood. Instead for part 2 of our marketing miniseries we’re going to have a serious conversation, good luck with that one, about your business’ brand and why the answers to these questions can be powerful. But rather than ask you to listen to someone with a background in accounting try to explain an abstract concept that asks consumers to qualify the way a business makes them feel among other things, I’ve asked my client and my great friend Brad Circone, president and chief brand officer of Circone + Associates to join us. Welcome to unsuitable, Brad.
Brad: Thank you.
Mark: I’ve got a quote for you.
Brad: Oh boy.
Mark: I want you to tell me, are they talking about me, are they talking about you?
Brad: Okay. I’m ready.
Mark: “A rock and roll collision course, Doors-like poetic, with some cunning post-punk hooks.” Me or you?
Brad: That could be me 20 years ago, you after 8:00pm. Yeah. You got that off thetollisdead.com.
Mark: Yes I did.
Brad: Very good research.
Mark: Yeah.
Brad: Yeah, we made that site as a marketing platform after Andyman died from CD 102.5. It’s the first time our band had gotten back together in 19 years to raise money after he passed. We created that website to let our fan base know throughout the country that we were going to be back on stage that night.
Mark: I read that and I’m like, “That’s you.” I’ve got another one for you, “Mr. and Mrs. River,” please audience don’t tune out while I read this. “Mr. and Mrs. River are more than narrow minded, they are close minded. They’re worried about their son Jamison Rain, who didn’t seem to follow the River’s meander at all. For by the fourth grade, Jamison Rain was no longer drawing the turkey with his hand. The nuns found him in the clothes rack. Apparently he was drawing all kinds of animals, and he was using much more than his hand to draw such animals, and when they found him, they clutched his knuckles on the end of the desk. And they said, ‘Hold on tight Jamison, you shall be punished for the freedom of creative thought. What are you trying to be, an artist?’ And then the ruler cut hard against his knuckles, and the blood was paid, by the penance of the boy, who sinned against his own creativity.” Isn’t everyone creative?
Brad: Yeah. I think they are.
Mark: I think everyone, some people …
Brad: I think everyone is. I think it’s how they express it, and if they have the right nurturance around them to ever find it.
Mark: I should note that was from, “Living In The Valley Of Pain,” correct?
Brad: Yeah, that was on our first record. That’s some good research. That is part of a narrative, we wrote songs by never writing lyrics. The only lyrics that were the same were the choruses. We would actually go in and record a song, or play it live, and all that would change. Those narrative sections were open. That was a one take on a mic, that’s the ideas that came out. We had been doing this before we were signed for 5 or 6 years. We knew each other well enough to know how to improvise that in a live feel.
Mark: I’m a firm believer that everybody is creative and I think coming up shortly Pat Porter from Rea is going to be on to talk about millennials, and obviously they’re creative. I get worried when somebody says, “I can’t draw, I can’t write, I can’t play a musical instrument. I’m not creative.” I disagree with all of that.
Brad: I agree with you. I think that you and I have a sound circle of friends.
Mark: Yes we do.
Brad: We do football drafts for fantasy, and I would say that on the surface in that room I appear to be the most creative guy, but I definitely know that is not true. There’s all kinds of ways of tapping into that creativity, I just decided early on since I was young that I would make that no matter … You know, I never cared about what’s the money look like. To me it was what’s the expression look like, and the expression will find money. That’s how I got into art. Well first English, explicating poetry was what I did in my spare time, and then art and entertainment and rock and roll, and then the last 16 years brand positional differentiation for companies, bring creativity into the morrow of business making. It’s been a good ride and I always say to myself, “I’ve got to stay authentic.” Anyway that creativity can lead me, I’m going that way.
Mark: In our last podcast, I don’t know if you’ve heard Becca Davis, I don’t know if you’ve had a chance to listen to that one yet.
Brad: Yes, I heard it live.
Mark: She talked about the importance of a marketing department and the difference between sales and marketing. Where does brand fit in there?
Brad: I think in your answer you said it well. Brand is this elusive concept, though I think it holds all the equity, and that’s why I got into. I started in the ad business, I moved away from the ad business and got in the marketing business. We still do a lot of marketing, communications, public relations and even production but the intellectualism of positioning brands with hearts and minds, and it really leads aspirational firms towards growth, interested me about 10 years ago. After we were stabilized as a company for the first 6 years in advertising and marketing we said, “Let’s just only focus on brand.” For me brand is … We say that brand deserves a spot at every board table. One of the first things that we talk about is what’s the voice of the brand. You guys were talking about earlier on the podcast with Becca about audience and voice. We say that the brand has a voice and it’s called veto. It’s above the CEO, it’s above all the products, it’s above every action, it’s about the best salesperson that you have nationally.
Mark: How do you say that? Who has that? Who’s this person with the veto?
Brad: It’s the collective agreement between where the company is going in the future. It is the ultimate power.
Mark: Like be around, not being around?
Brad: That’s right.
Mark: Survival, not survival.
Brad: That’s right, that’s right. If you look at great brands, and we all know them, Apple, Google. Look at profitability, differentiation, Mercedes. I overheard a conversation the other day between 2 gentlemen and they were talking about, “I don’t know why anybody buys a Mercedes when Hyundai has the same engine, it has the same kind of amenities.” He was speaking of. The reason is simple.
Mark: The brand.
Brad: It’s the brand, and it’s the emotion that you feel, feeling preferred by that brand. In professional services so many times we think that brand is our experience. Brand is not our experience, or our master’s degree on a wall, or a PhD on the wall. The brand is the last emotive feeling that I had with you, the reflection. The audience is the brand. The audience has all the power. When you hang up the phone with a client, however you left that client is the state of the brand.
Mark: Interesting. You mentioned aspirational, for guys like myself can you describe that please?
Brad: Brand should go beyond products and services. We say that you build brands, you can build brands, again if you take Apple, brands are built on adjectives. A commodity, a car, is a noun. A fast car, or a turbo engine car, or something at Mach, these are aspirations of a commodity. All brands have to lead with an emotional aspiration. Now they have to live it every day, so you can lead with emotional aspirations but you have to live it and deliver it every day, which means as you grow so do your people. We say that they do that, brands do that in 3 ways.
That is, through products that they have, through platforms that those products reside on, or through programs that they may have, which could involve community like Toms Shoes. Toms Shoes is more about giving to those who don’t have shoes than buying a pair of shoes from Toms. That’s probably a strong example of aspirational branding.
Mark: I’m a manufacturer, I make baby bottles that I sell to someone and they turn around and sell them. Do I have a brand?
Brad: Yes. We would argue that you don’t, what you do is make baby bottles, but that’s not your purpose. Your purpose is to nurture young adults, and to support families across America by the way you make your baby bottles. The baby bottles are a vehicle to a higher aspiration.
Mark: For the brand.
Brad: That’s right.
Mark: You used that word aspirational again.
Brad: Sorry.
Mark: We’ll have to pause and I’ll have to look that up.
Brad: Sorry. Excuse me.
Mark: You are very passionate about branding.
Brad: I am. It’s almost odd.
Mark: Why say it’s odd? I find it enjoyable.
Brad: Thank you. It’s a penchant of mine, but you’re right I am very passionate about it. Because I see it everywhere not functioning very effectively, and it drives me crazy.
Mark: I’m a CPA, I’ve been a CPA for a long time, and if there are 2 people that I enjoy talking to, Becca Davis and Brad Circone.
Brad: That’s awesome thank you.
Mark: They get me going if I’m feeling …
Brad: A little flat.
Mark: Another day, I’m going to push this pencil across the paper. I’ll create some reason to call of you to get me going.
Brad: That’s nice, thank you.
Mark: Like, “Okay, let’s be creative here. Let’s get after it.” I thanked her on the last podcast, I guess I’ll thank you now for what you do for me. I enjoy talking to you, just like, “Here’s what going on, get out there. You’re original Mark go do it.” I find that very, very motivating.
Brad: Thank you, thank you. That’s great. I think that has to do a lot with our friendship, but also because I know what my skill set is, and it’s not accounting, and you do the same thing for me in areas where it’s not my natural inclination, right?
Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Brad: To me that’s just as helpful, or just as much a shot in the arm, as hopefully whatever little bit of creative advice I’m giving you on a given day.
Mark: Do you think as individuals we have a brand?
Brad: Yeah. I’ve written about this. I’ve actually collected for 16 years, everyone that’s ever worked for me we have created a content which I haven’t released called, “The Brand Book.” They are made up terms about branding functionality and what happens. Everybody is a brand and everything is brand, even generic brands who don’t want to be brands are brands. The Kroger anti-brand, we know is the Kroger with 2 much salt brand, right? Yet we know the Tiffany brand is a damn good diamond but that powder blue box adds-
Mark: Goes a long way.
Brad: It adds another 3 or 4 points on the top of the purchase. We’re willing for it. We’re willing to do that because the PMS color is beautiful. Everything is a – God is a brand. God is a brand.
Mark: I’m sorry, slow down.
Brad: That’s a code for … It’s an advertising code, a branding code for specific colors.
Mark: Okay, thank you. Sorry.
Brad: Yes.
Mark: Taking notes sir.
Brad: Everybody is a brand and everything is a brand. From God to obviously you see it in politics, to religion, to your name. When you think about it, before you can influence your brand your name already has, by the way the teachers respond to you because their uncle’s named Mark and they love that uncle, or they hate him.
Mark: Thanks for bringing that up.
Brad: Everything is a brand.
Mark: But the young staff accountant, walking in the door day 1, he has a brand.
Brad: Absolutely, and has a lifestyle that lives that brand every day, in all that he wants to do. True.
Mark: The person back there, processing payroll tax returns has a brand.
Brad: Yes. There’s personal brands, there are professional brands, there’s relational brands. They even now talk about adjacency branding, in other words who you’re near, what your brand is near. Not necessarily a branding deal but the idea of influence of brand and sphere of brand. All those things matter. There’s a great story about …
Mark: I’m sure we’ve got time for it.
Brad: … about advertising that is short. It says that this gentleman wakes up in the morning and he takes a shower and he uses his advertised soap with his advertised shaving cream and his advertised razor. He then brushes his teeth with advertised toothpaste and uses his advertises mouthwash. He then puts on his advertised suit and his advertised tie, and then he ties his advertised shoes. He gets in his advertised car. He drives, listening to his advertised radio station. He arrives at the firm, he sits in his Herman Miller advertised chair and he says, “That’s it, I’ve decided, all advertising will cease until someone proves to me that it works.”
Mark: It works. That’s a great story.
Brad: That is why initially got out of advertising, but that’s all driven by branding. All those, what I call especially in professional services, I call the tip, and that is trust, insight and perspective. If a brand, if you can create affinity and professional services through trust and relative insight that creates a perspective, that person if you’re hourly rate is 25%, 50% higher than your next competitor, it doesn’t matter. You win with that kind of, what I call understanding the tip of purchase intention through a brand.
Mark: Would that extend also to now just an hourly rate purchase but to our baby bottle manufacturer. I think that could extend to that also.
Brad: Absolutely. You trust that it’s going to function well, it gives you an insight to your child care and you like the 10% of all the bottles sold go to feed world hunger in another nation. Those 3 things, you make the decision that yes it costs a dollar more, it does not matter it aligns with my values. It’s purpose of my purpose. I love this brand. You know branding is about love affair, not like affair. Marketing is about creating likes and affinities, tallying them up as Becca was saying to create an opportunity. Brand is not about the first date or how are things going in the marriage. Brand is, “We’re in love and we’re going to work it out,” right?
Mark: That’s powerful.
Brad: That’s what brand loyalty comes down to.
Mark: That’s really powerful. We call that change in the pocket. How much change in the pocket do I have? If I screw up can I … But I like your analogy better there. Second good thing you said today.
Brad: Thank you.
Mark: All right, I wake up in the morning, I’ve had an epiphany.
Brad: Yeah?
Mark: I’m a scrooge, I don’t like my brand. What can I do about it?
Brad: Number 1, I think that the most important thing to do is ask why.
Mark: Be genuine?
Brad: Yeah, and ask why. Don’t spend time in the how and the what. Life is not about the how and the what or the where. That’s just called directions. Why is that inspiration to become aspirational.
Mark: It’s the third time you said that word.
Brad: If you say, “Hey, I don’t like my brand,” well then we have to say, “What about it don’t you? What doesn’t align with you?” But then we have to dig deeper and say, “What is that you want to do?” Position all you do around that one focus.
Mark: I would assume you would get too, “Oh I just want to make more money,” you say, “Well you’re not aspirational at that point.”
Brad: Right. A why of more income is not the kind of why I’m talking about.
Mark: Yeah.
Brad: We deal with 20 to 25 differentiators when we create a portfolio for a company, separating you. That’s what differentiating does, it separates you from the competition. One of them is not a differentiator that some people think is, and I’m happy that Rea doesn’t necessarily practice this. That is price drop, or, “My difference is price.” Price is not a difference, right?
Mark: No.
Brad: Price is a commodity. All I have to do is have a sharper pencil and a bigger eraser, and I beat you the next day.
Mark: Right.
Brad: Right? Mercedes doesn’t have test drives, they have driving events. The reason is because they have to keep that margin somewhere, right?
Mark: Right.
Brad: Apple didn’t invent computers, they invented the first personal lifestyle device, right?
Mark: Right.
Brad: There’s an intimacy there that margin pays for and that’s called brand.
Mark: Yeah. You believe that every organization has some sort of aspirational brand?
Brad: They do. They do. I believe that that brand needs to also filter back to those 3 Ps that I said. Product, platforms, programs. It still has to be something that’s authentic, it can’t be so aspirational, “I love hot air balloons, look at me,” and the guy is a dart salesman.
Mark: Right.
Brad: That’s not what I mean by aspiration-
Mark: That might be the funniest thing ever said on this podcast.
Brad: Versus the idea of aspirational alignment to things you can actually deliver.
Mark: Right. I think Becca talked a little bit about know who your audience is, know what they want to buy, know what your channels of distribution are, kind of similar, what are you selling and making sure you’re aspirational to that group.
Brad: Yeah, and you and I have talked about this. When you and I compare professional services notes and with Rea, it’s a fascinating thing to not only know who your target is, but I like to say in branding it’s more important to know who the hell you don’t want.
Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Brad: Because knowing who you don’t want frees you up to knowing who you want to spend time with.
Mark: It’s a great point.
Brad: Often times business say, “We’ve drop 2 points quarter to quarter,” or, “The last trailing 12 are down.” They create action that solves a problem but steals money from the brand.
Mark: The brand, yeah.
Brad: Where’s all the money? It’s in the equity of the brand. The value of color Coke red is more valuable, just the color of Coke red is more valuable than what Coca-Cola sells.
Mark: That’s why you said the brand needs to have a veto.
Brad: That’s right. That happened when I first moved from advertising to branding and I had 2 partners that were in a fist fight live over a brand that we had presented. One was the financial backer and the other one was the visionary. You can’t lose either one of them.
Mark: Right.
Brad: Of course I said, “Let’s take a vote, you 2 need to leave the room.” They said, “We’re the only ones with voting rights.” I said, “No, the brand is though.”
Mark: The brand is.
Brad: Right. That’s how we made the business decision and ever since then it’s been great, it worked. Now when there’s an argument we say, “What would the brand do? How would the brand vote?” It’s a way to stay honest.
Mark: It has to stay honest, but I would think it’d take a lot of gut checking. I’m not here with my agenda, I’m here for the brand agenda.
Brad: If you’re not selfish and you really want to grow the brand, then you do what’s right for the brand.
Mark: I’m an elding male who’s getting up in years. You don’t want me to be selfish?
Brad: That’s right, I do not.
Mark: That’s a challenging I think.
Brad: I know. It is for many-
Mark: It’s hard.
Brad: It’s hard, but ultimately we can put ROI to brand. We can put ROI to brand. That is the idea that if you give us time to elevate those marketing messages and advertising, align them so that the brand can elevate itself, that will be the greatest return over time, not the tactical things you do or the quick adjustments you make to make the next sale. This sale, when Becca was talking about marketing jobs and setting up opportunities, and it’s the c-suite or the sales member’s job to close it. It’s all true. It’s brand’s job to keep that love affair after the close, retention we were talking about, alive a lot longer than expected.
Mark: That’s powerful.
Brad: Puma has done it, Hershey’s has done it. There are legacy brands that frankly you would say, “What have they done for me lately?” That people still love.
Mark: I agree with you and I love hearing you talk but somebody may say, “I’m not Puma, I’m not Hershey, it doesn’t apply to me.”
Brad: It doesn’t.
Mark: I’m in Central Ohio here, producing my baby bottles.
Brad: That’s right, or I’m even below that. I have no employees, I’m a college student who wants to start a baby sitting job. I know a central Ohio college student that in 3 years netted $140,000 babysitting. It was through brand and marketing networks. What she did is that when baby sitters were taken and couldn’t sit that night, guess who flew in to have her posse of baby sitters save the day, and the price was double, because time was up and they had a 8:00 dinner reservation.
Mark: Right
Brad: Everything needs a brand and a marketing model to support that brand.
Mark: Brad, this might the longest podcast on record, for you and I.
Brad: It is, we’re 3 minutes over for God’s sake.
Mark: We’re 3 minutes over. I thoroughly enjoyed it, we could keep on going.
Brad: Yes.
Mark: You know by sitting in these, we always have one question we ask every guest. If you have one superpower what would it be?
Brad: Becca’s superpower was great.
Mark: It was. That was powerful.
Brad: It was because she didn’t say stop time or start time, but she became programmatic in her superpower.
Mark: Yeah.
Brad: When she said control time, that’s the key word. I started thinking about that and I have decided that superpowers can be psychological. I have 2 that are connected.
Mark: 2?
Brad: It’s a pair of powers. Number 1, true forgiveness.
Mark: That’s powerful.
Brad: I would like to have the power, I look back in my life and the things I’ve done, the people I have loved and the people I thought I didn’t love. The one thing that I think about is I wish I had the ability to truly forgive instantly for the right people.
Mark: That’s powerful.
Brad: The second thing is to find magnificence in everybody. I think everyone has a story and a beautiful side to them, but in this world we don’t slow down long enough to say, “You do have one thing that’s magnificent about yourself.”
Mark: I agree with you.
Brad: “What is that?” Those are the 2 powers I’d like to have.
Mark: That’s interesting because I look at you and I think you’ve got both of those. You’re very humbling, you’re very appreciative of somebody who gives, and you’re accepting and I think you strive to bring out the best of creativity of people and to say, “You’re really, really good at this.” You might already have your superpower you just don’t know it.
Brad: Thank you, that’s awesome. I didn’t think about that. Now I’m blushing, for all you audiophiles out there, I’m red.
Mark: Thank you for joining us today Brad. Most of us don’t spend out days thinking about the way our businesses are perceived but if there’s one thing I’ve learned from this conversation it’s maybe we should. Visit our website at www.reacpa.com/podcast for additional insight and resources, and subscribe to unsuitable on iTunes or SoundCloud for even more great business advice from industry experts like Brad. You missed part 1 of our marketing miniseries? Shame on you, be sure to check it out. Until next time I’m Mark Van Benschoten encouraging you to loosen up your tie and think outside the box.
