Dave Cain: Welcome to unsuitable on Rea Radio, the award winning financial services and business advisory podcast that challenges your old school business practices and their traditional business suit culture. Our guests are industry professionals and experts who will challenge you to think beyond the suit and tie while offering you meaningful modern solutions to help enhanced your company’s growth. I’m your host, Dave Cain from Rea Radio headquarters in Dublin, Ohio.
You’ve likely heard this one before. After weeks or even months of looking for the right candidate for that hard to fill position, you finally identified the chosen one. Only several weeks of onboarding later it’s now clear that you may have been mistaken with your new hire. What do you do? Well, you can always fire them but that brings up a litany of other concerns. You could try working with them again hoping they get it in the second, third or the fourth time, but that may put an unnecessary strain on your company’s valuable resources and your team with no guarantee that it’s going to make any difference. So what’s the ideal solution?
Derek Conrad, a senior manager on Rea’s government services team is here to talk about ways to overcome what seems like a lose-lose scenario. On this episode of unsuitable, we’re going to dive into the topic of necessary endings and why you have to sometimes prune in one area to help other areas flourish. Welcome to unsuitable Derek.
Derek Conrad: Thank you.
Dave: Before we get started here, I want to talk a little bit about, you’re an auditor located in New Philadelphia, Ohio but you travel around the state of Ohio performing a multiple level of government services for government entities. Let’s talk a little bit about what you do in your day to day job as a government auditor and government services.
Derek: So auditing, so we’re looking at cash receipts and payroll and all that good stuff for school districts, counties, cities, those types of entities looking at a lot of compliance requirements and diving into a whole lot of detail.
Dave: Also, the entities you work with are school districts, municipalities, counties, you name it. In fact, I do believe I heard from your team that your team is one of the largest providers of these services for the state of Ohio, one of the largest independent contractors.
Derek: Yes.
Dave: Congratulations and that team is growing through the roof so good stuff. Now, today’s topic is really a H.R. topic, human resource topic about I guess hiring and firing and again, I ask you, what the heck is a government auditor in here doing a podcast on H.R. issues?
Derek: I kind of ask myself that too.
Dave: You drew the story short straw there.
Derek: I guess so. Coaching has always been something that I took an interest in early on and looking at people as our assets and their development it’s something that really was passionate about early on so I kind of gravitated towards that.
Dave: One of the things in the reason you are here is that you work with a lot of teams, not only at a client level, at the entity level but also your own team, on a team, you take ownership of that team and this is true to your heart that the coaching is important. Let’s start out with the, what happens. Let’s be real about some of this stuff is that you’re out on a job and you have an employee that just not getting it done. As the manager, senior manager on that job and responsible what is your first step.
Derek: First step is to understand whether that employee realizes that they’re underperforming. Is there a disconnect between what expectations are versus performance. Then you can go from there. If the employee is completely unaware that they’re underperforming then you’ve got some discussions about expectations and performance but if they’re aware of the issue and it’s just a technical issue or something that they need more guidance on, then you can go a different direction with it. That disconnect is what you have to tackle first, just to see if they even understand that there’s an issue.
Dave: See, I’ve been disconnected from the audit world for many years. Is it reasonable to think that somebody doesn’t know that they’re not performing?
Derek: Sure. Absolutely because a lot of our work is under time constraints much like anything in accounting and they may be performing the work at a quality level but they’re just taking too much time or they might be flying through it going too quickly and then the quality suffers as a result. There’s a couple areas where they may think they’re doing well but then they’re suffering in other areas and we have to figure out what the balance is there.
Dave: A couple loaded questions here. How do you know when it’s time to move on?
Derek: Well, I think the first step is when you’ve identified that there’s an issue. Have you established an action plan steps first off. Have you taken a couple stabs at okay, this is the issue, this is what we’re going to do to correct the issue, give it some time to see if if there’s any improvements made and then if you’ve done this two, three, four times, then you’ve started to realize that it doesn’t matter what I as a coach do or you as an employee does, this likely is not going to be something that we can overcome and then you start to evaluate what the options are at that point.
Dave: With your experience, how long do you give an individual?
Derek: A minimum of six months in our arena because there’s just so much to learn early on that I don’t think it’s fair to be too harsh in that first six month period. From six months to a year you can pretty much get a pretty good grasp of where they’re at and where they’re going.
Dave: Have you ever waited too long to make a decision?
Derek: Absolutely. Yup.
Dave: What’s the downside of that?
Derek: Well, the downside is, the way I look at it is our people as an investment, my time is invested in them, the firm’s resources are invested in them and just like any investment you have to look at that rate of return. At a certain point the investment is just too great and the return is just too little that you just have to cut ties.
Dave: Go back to the coaching and mentoring and let’s say you’re three months in with a new employee, they’ve been with you on your team for three months. What’s the first coaching message you want to deliver?
Derek: The very first coaching message that I want to deliver is I want to set those expectations early on. I want them to understand what their role is and what their responsibilities are and make sure there’s no confusion as to what they’re trying to accomplish in their position. I think if we lay that out early on then that makes the rest of it a lot smoother.
Dave: You know, we often hear, both of us often hear that delivering bad news or tough news, honest news is hard to do and it’s not not for the weak of heart.
Derek: Sure.
Dave: Have you run into cases where again, you’ve been slow to respond?
Derek: Yup, sure. I think it’s natural to especially early on and when you’re coaching to avoid those situations and procrastinate as much as you can but I think as you get more experienced, whether you understand that you just, it’s nothing personal, you have to remove yourself and be fact-based in your evaluations. You also have to get the employees to buy into it. You have to get their perspective on things. For the most part, most employees understand when they’re struggling and they understand it’s something that they can either overcome or it’s just not of interest to them and they need to move on.
Dave: Have you ever blamed yourself for maybe an employee failing or not moving forward with an action plan?
Derek: Most of the time I have. A lot of times I look at it from a coaching perspective and what could I have done better. Maybe the method I took initially wasn’t the right one or maybe the training that I tried to get them wasn’t the right training. That’s constantly something that I look at and naturally I blame myself for a lot of that stuff.
Dave: And try to get better the next time around.
Derek: Yup.
Dave: Do you have a mentor?
Derek: I have a couple mentors, yes.
Dave: Are they inside the profession or outside the profession?
Derek: Mostly inside the permission.
Dave: Okay. Okay, so you subscribe up and down. You expect that of yourself and of your team.
Derek: Sure.
Dave: Why is it important for both the company and the employee to act swiftly, whether than to continue to allow situations and low performers to drag on? That sounds like a pretty open question with a solid answer but we’re not getting that all the time. What do you think, what’s important to both the company and the employee?
Derek: The obvious is that you’re not getting the performance you want but that’s the easy answer. The other aspects that I think you need to look at is is company morale and culture. I think that’s more important than anything. Low performers can have such an impact on your high performers that you just really have to monitor that and be really careful because those low performers can suck everybody down. When you’re trying to maintain a culture and a high morale that’s something that’s extremely important.
Dave: You know, in today’s labor climate where labor is so difficult to obtain, in your opinion, is the temptation to hang on to that employee too long because you can’t replace?
Derek: Absolutely. Hiring good people is very difficult. A lot of times you’re holding on to those low to mid performers hoping that things turn around. I think the thing you have to be careful of is the difference between hoping and wishing. Hoping, there’s some glimmers of hope there, there’s some things that you see that okay, we have some improvement here, there are some things we can build upon. Wishing is a whole different aspect. Wishing is really a scenario for disaster. You’re just holding out some kind of a wish that things are going to improve or they’re going to get better and most of the times they don’t.
Dave: Sure. Outside of the auditing field, outside of the, I want to say the eight to five job but I know you don’t work eight to five, you’re more like a six to six kind of guy with what you have to do and travel in your profession. I understand that you’re heavily involved with your kids’ activities and use sports. Are you a coach?
Derek: Used to be. My son’s now in the high school range so I get to just watch at this point. My daughter’s involved with volleyball which I know next to nothing about so I’ll leave the coaching to someone who knows a little bit more about it than me.
Dave: Back in your coaching career what was your record? What was your lifetime record? We got to know these things on unsuitable. These are important facts.
Derek: I’m going to conservatively say I was probably 500.
Dave: 500. You had to be on the north side of 500. As intense as you can be.
Derek: By a few games.
Dave: What was your favorite sport to coach?
Derek: I enjoy baseball.
Dave: Baseball. Do you like the sacrifice bunt, the double switch and all that stuff?
Derek: All that stuff.
Dave: You’re good to go.
Derek: All strategy.
Dave: Good. I understand you’re also a Browns fan and with the draft coming up here in a few weeks, who are the Browns picking number?
Derek: You know, it’s looking like a quarterback. I don’t know which one but I hope it’s a quarterback.
Dave: We’re all hoping for a quarterback. We’ll take at 500 record, won’t we?
Derek: Oh, absolutely.
Dave: What’s holding us back from making these crucial decisions about employment issues with one of our team members? What are couple things that would hold you back, hold me back, hold our team back?
Derek: A lot of times I think it’s fear, it’s fear of confrontation, it’s fear of the unknown. You let an employee go, are we going to be able to find someone better to fill that position. So, fear of confrontation I think is the big one because you have to have these difficult conversations and you just never know how the person’s going to react to that. So I think that fear of what’s going to happen with this situation, I think holds a lot of people back. Fear of the unknown is a big one.
Dave: The fear of unknown confrontation, that’s certainly alive and well. If we think about this, you and I both think about about this, we never took a class in college about how to mentor, coach, fire an employee and that has become, I don’t want to say firing has become a large part of our jobs but managing people is more than it’s ever been. So give us a couple tips on how to create that successful team. What do you do to make sure your team succeeds? You have a couple tips?
Derek: The biggest thing in my perspective anyway is building relationships. We say that often with not only employees but clients. I think it’s all about relationships and building that trust between the coach and the employee, that understanding that we’re looking out for their best interest as well as the organization’s best interest but we’re all on the same page and we’re all moving towards common goals. That has to be the driving force. I think once you build those core relationships, then you can start to really dive into some details and really start to improve performance and get into the nitty gritty of coaching at that point.
Dave: As a coach and mentor, how often do you meet with your team?
Derek: At least once a quarter. I like it to be more on a monthly basis if I can. I just find that the more timely that we can have these discussions the better outcome we’re going to get. I think when you’re thinking in terms of maybe something negative has happened, I think those meetings have to happen immediately. That seems to be a big issue with coaching is okay, we need to have a meeting once, twice per year, so those are the meetings we’re going to have. And then you sit on a whole lot of issues for six months to a year and then you just bombard this person with all these issues that they maybe weren’t aware were issues. So I think having those timely communications is key into improving performance anyway.
Dave: In your opinion, where’s the best place to have these meetings? Do you like to have them at your desk or do you like to go off site?
Derek: I do a lot of lunches off site. I also like to go to conference rooms if I’m staying in the office. I don’t like to do it in my office because I feel like it’s a little, it just doesn’t feel quite as neutral as it should. I prefer to have it in more of a conference room setting where there’s less distractions and we can just kind of discuss what’s going on.
Dave: You’re pretty tough on the crew or you give a little rope?
Derek: I try not to be too tough but I guess…
Dave: You sun of a gun, are you?
Derek: At times I can be I think. I’m a man of few words I guess. I’m to the point and there’s not a whole lot of sugarcoating it. So, that’s just how I roll.
Dave: Just let it rip, huh?
Derek: Yup.
Dave: Have you gone through the 360 evaluation?
Derek: Yup.
Dave: You obviously received some feedback from your team members. I mean, that’s part of the coaching. Did you get pretty good feedback? I would imagine you did.
Derek: Yeah. It wasn’t wasn’t too terrible, I’m still here.
Dave: You’re still here, right? Again, I want to go back to some suggestions, some help that you can give the listeners. The one thing is don’t let these relationships that aren’t going anywhere, don’t let them go too far. In your opinion, let’s conclude how long should should we wait, rule of thumb.
Derek: I usually give these six months to a year. Obviously, if there are certain performance issues, those are non-negotiable. You have certain issues that are termination immediately. This would not be in those categories. But if we’re talking strictly performance and improving performance, I usually give it six months to a year. At that year point, if you haven’t seen some pretty drastic improvements then I think it’s at that point that you’ve probably, you’ve went through all your options and it’s time to move on at that point.
Dave: We have a lot of H.R. professionals listening to the podcast, they’re out there listening to this thing probably shaking their heads saying, you guys don’t know what you’re talking about.
Derek: I’m sure.
Dave: But, you’re on the front line and you have to deliver certified financial audit to your clients and so you need to absolutely make sure your talent is responding.
Derek: Absolutely.
Dave: It sounds like you do a pretty good job of that. So again, on the 360 evaluation, I want to go back to that because that seems to be gaining some steam in some organizations. Can you share something that maybe your team shared about you in your performance? It’s always kind of fun to, do you want me to make something up or, I can go get a file. I’ll get the file, would you.
Derek: I think the biggest thing that I took away was there’s a level of trust there. They do believe that I have their best interests in mind. That’s kind of what came out of my evaluation anyway. That’s what I want them to understand is there’s nothing personal in what I do. The organization’s best interest is always in the forefront, but it’s also developing people that’s key to what we do.
Dave: And the objective of the podcast is really we want our team members to succeed. Doesn’t always happen but we work our hardest to make sure that happens. And you have a great track record of doing that and in fact, your leadership capabilities are well known across the firm, you’re graduate of Rea’s NextGen leadership. So you’re bringing, you’re practicing what you preach and bringing it out to your team so congratulations on that.
Derek: Thank you.
Dave: Our guest today’s been Derek Conrad, senior manager in Rea’s Government and Audit Services. Derek is located in New Philadelphia, Ohio and is a big sports fan and hoping for that Q.B. to shed some light on the Browns upcoming season. So, thanks again for joining us on unsuitable today.
Derek: Thank you.
Dave: Thanks for shining a light on this valuable solution. Listeners, do you have some hiring horror stories to share? We want to hear them. Email us at podcast@reacpa.com. If you haven’t already, don’t forget to subscribe to unsuitable on iTunes or check out video from today’s episode on Rea’s YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. Until next time, I’m Dave Cain encouraging you to loosen up your tie and think outside the box.
Disclaimer: The views expressed on unsuitable on Rea Radio are our own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Rea & Associates. The podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not intended to replace the professional advice you would receive elsewhere. Consult with a trusted advisor about your unique situation so they can expertly guide you to the best solution for your specific circumstance.